tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741227658356358863.post6168694389053821422..comments2023-09-21T09:49:28.326-07:00Comments on Fierce Dandelions: Buddhism and WealthNathanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13920234350446745482noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741227658356358863.post-46681633298708430862012-12-29T09:42:18.659-08:002012-12-29T09:42:18.659-08:00Diana,
My post didn't negate people having m...Diana, <br /><br />My post didn't negate people having money, or even being financially successful. I'm not a monk either, and I'm not against money per se. <br /><br />But if the end goal of investing and making a lot of money is mostly about being rich and successful, I'd say that's meaningless. And given that a small percentage of people these days own and control a very Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13920234350446745482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741227658356358863.post-71451497485176839412012-12-29T07:00:08.146-08:002012-12-29T07:00:08.146-08:00Hello,
I found this discussion very interesting. H...Hello,<br />I found this discussion very interesting. However I would like to point out that at least for me, this condemnation of wealth and desire just isn't common sense. Now before you delete my comment, please hear me out.<br /><br />I am extremely interested in finances and I spend a big chuck of my time pouring over business news and educated myself about stocks. People say that Just Another Girlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07876081456882799835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741227658356358863.post-87550332859524462142011-03-25T09:12:45.898-07:002011-03-25T09:12:45.898-07:00Hi Peter,
I totally agree with this:
"I fe...Hi Peter,<br /><br />I totally agree with this: <br /><br />"I feel "compelled" out of responsibility for my life (and death, as it were). Clean up your own mess, or as we used to say when I still worked in commercial kitchens, "clean up as you go."<br /><br />And it's so very true that end of life care, as well as specialist care for terminal illnesses, is extremely Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13920234350446745482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741227658356358863.post-52893743407866907832011-03-24T23:17:14.852-07:002011-03-24T23:17:14.852-07:00Nathan, I only now got around to reading your repl...Nathan, I only now got around to reading your reply. In it you ask: "why do you feel compelled to not rely on others to take care of you in old age, sickness, and death? ... But perhaps there is an internalized cultural narrative at play here - that a successful life and death is one you finance yourself, and somehow control yourself, and in the end, aren't a 'burden onto others.'peterhttp://kissing.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741227658356358863.post-82765825742209108272011-03-23T09:40:54.048-07:002011-03-23T09:40:54.048-07:00I'll have to look into Pirate Parties. I'm...I'll have to look into Pirate Parties. I'm all for figuring out coherent ways to break away from the old left-right paradigm.Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13920234350446745482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741227658356358863.post-34652967632866178072011-03-22T22:38:39.704-07:002011-03-22T22:38:39.704-07:00I've lately gotten more and more interested in...I've lately gotten more and more interested in Pirate Parties. I think there's a genuine, coherent, and serious political philosophy emerging there, that's off the traditional left-right axis and reflects some genuinely new ideas about how we could organize a just society based on an information economy. It goes way beyond wanting to play games for free.<br /><br />I think Marx would&Brikoleurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01318706625291447339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741227658356358863.post-27935647651996179762011-03-22T10:29:11.347-07:002011-03-22T10:29:11.347-07:00Barry,
Your comment got tossed in the spam box, ...Barry, <br /><br />Your comment got tossed in the spam box, and I just found it now. <br /><br />"In my experience, Western Buddhist communities contain a disproportionately large number of people who live on the margins of economic society." This is probably true of more monastic communities.<br /><br />However, if you walk into the average weekly service or dharma class of a lay Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13920234350446745482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741227658356358863.post-63142679225888639542011-03-22T10:16:22.548-07:002011-03-22T10:16:22.548-07:00"What I understand is that we should strive t..."What I understand is that we should strive to be fully present in whatever we do, and to do good for the world." I agree with this Daniel. I have never viewed vows of completely renouncing all possessions as the sole way to practice and awaken. The challenge, I think, is to remain diligent in checking in on that "do good" portion of the equation. Because it's easy to Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13920234350446745482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741227658356358863.post-51338916546985611842011-03-21T16:57:19.270-07:002011-03-21T16:57:19.270-07:00I don't see earning a living as going against ...I don't see earning a living as going against your quest for enlightenment... What I understand is that we should strive to be fully present in whatever we do, and to do good for the world. In my job I can do both: I'm an ESL teacher which requires presence and which helps people to improve their lives. Are other jobs out there as karmically sound as mine? Well, some are and some aren'Danielhttp://simplifymotherfuckers.tumblr.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741227658356358863.post-76710453250898881952011-03-20T17:54:39.391-07:002011-03-20T17:54:39.391-07:00It's just so different from the narratives I h...It's just so different from the narratives I heard my students tell - people who had come from all over the world. They just expected that family or the larger community would be there to support them if they needed it, especially at the end of life. Maybe having such an expectation can be a set up for great misery if it doesn't happen that way, but somehow I also think that this whole &Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13920234350446745482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741227658356358863.post-23991037466758245972011-03-20T17:49:05.907-07:002011-03-20T17:49:05.907-07:00Daishin,
It doesn't sound to me like you'...Daishin, <br /><br />It doesn't sound to me like you're rolling in excess. And I know from your blog that you're frequently supporting others and giving back. Part of bringing this all up is that I don't feel there is a clear cut answer as to what is excess, or what Buddhist teachings might say about working with material possessions as a modern lay person. <br /><br />This part Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13920234350446745482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741227658356358863.post-76707894950862103512011-03-20T16:04:41.293-07:002011-03-20T16:04:41.293-07:00you ask: "How do material wealth, especially ...you ask: "How do material wealth, especially accumulating wealth as individuals, fit into Buddhist teachings?"<br /><br />I confess that I haven't given much thought to this. Most luikely because I grew up poor (i mean it, my family had no savings, food came day by day, we owned no property, all post-war germany working class). to find myself at age 67 with some savings and a daishinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741227658356358863.post-89586460984514469672011-03-20T11:39:11.184-07:002011-03-20T11:39:11.184-07:00At the risk of going round in circles, I agree tha...At the risk of going round in circles, I agree that you can live in the world mindful and released and live a life of renunciation, but being there in that environment if we choose the bodhisattva path, we have no choice but to engage in deliberate pawing and clawing no matter how insignificant the apparent results are.David Ashtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18339979176989832285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741227658356358863.post-40548652514009352302011-03-20T11:31:25.006-07:002011-03-20T11:31:25.006-07:00"There is no greater or lesser vehicle, there..."There is no greater or lesser vehicle, there are only the Four Noble Truths." <br /><br />Yeah, I have never believed in the greater/lesser vehicle view. And certainly, I have heard teachers of both traditions speaking similar narratives. Perhaps it's more accurate to say things like bodhisattvahood tend to be more subtler in expression in Theravadan teachings.Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13920234350446745482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741227658356358863.post-68900828786909628062011-03-20T10:52:51.859-07:002011-03-20T10:52:51.859-07:00Actually Nathan, when you read the Theranamo Sutta...Actually Nathan, when you read the Theranamo Sutta, one of the teachings the Buddha gives Thera is one can live in the world and be mindful and released, that renunciation does not literally mean running off to the forest to be alone. That is one way, but unless one is alone with one's own mind, it doesn't matter where you are, and you can be "alone" anywhere, even in a crowded Richard Harroldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02943119066949899198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741227658356358863.post-59087052515053437302011-03-20T10:29:35.285-07:002011-03-20T10:29:35.285-07:00One of the challenges I see is that too many of us...One of the challenges I see is that too many of us, even many who are influenced by Buddhist teachings, look around at the larger social/economic environment and see it as a fixed story. Some love it, and say we've reached a pinnacle of wealth and innovation. Others hate it and see all the exploitation, suffering, and inequalities occurring. But for most of it, it's a stuck narrative and Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13920234350446745482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741227658356358863.post-16595530216168351602011-03-20T10:29:24.071-07:002011-03-20T10:29:24.071-07:00I suppose this might be one place where the therav...I suppose this might be one place where the theravada and mahayana stories don't line up. As I see it, one may be liberated, having renounced clinging to everything and everyone, and still operate in the world. In fact, I'd say this is where the historical Buddha was operating from. The final liberation came at parinirvana, but before that you had bodhisattva action in the world coming Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13920234350446745482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741227658356358863.post-14134548493900733532011-03-20T07:45:54.789-07:002011-03-20T07:45:54.789-07:00@Petteri,
Yes, the only way out is to attain Nibb...@Petteri,<br /><br />Yes, the only way out is to attain Nibbana so there is no returning. However, the Buddha knew that most of us would not attain that, at least in the present life. We can still do our best even if we live in an f'd-up world and system (consider the Theranamo Sutta and Bhaddekarrata Sutta).<br /><br />My dilemma is very similar, my job is really about finding ways to Richard Harroldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02943119066949899198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741227658356358863.post-64016052456968230792011-03-20T00:32:11.806-07:002011-03-20T00:32:11.806-07:00@Richard: I read it. It pretty much boils down to ...@Richard: I read it. It pretty much boils down to "don't be a dick." Good advice, no doubt.<br /><br />But it doesn't really address the problem that Algernon points out, and I think what Nathan had in mind when writing it. What if you're part of a system that's profoundly unjust? You can live your life exactly as the Sigalovada Sutta exhorts, and still be part of a Brikoleurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01318706625291447339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741227658356358863.post-16055282277913634302011-03-19T22:15:18.264-07:002011-03-19T22:15:18.264-07:00You should read the Sigalovada Sutta, the Lay Pers...You should read the Sigalovada Sutta, the Lay Person's Code of Discipline, in which the Buddha explains the right way for a layperson to live, including the accumulation and dispersion of wealth.<br /><br />http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.31.0.nara.htmlRichard Harroldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02943119066949899198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741227658356358863.post-24666620436787909552011-03-19T20:01:36.977-07:002011-03-19T20:01:36.977-07:00The Buddha asked his closest followers to leave se...The Buddha asked his closest followers to leave security behind: they cut their hair, left their careers and families behind, and lived as homeless people. Other people who listened to Buddha's teaching did not do that. Buddha talked to anybody, whether they were part of his homeless entourage or not. <br /><br />There is a deeper level here, which has to do with our participation in the Algernonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01698040927871199780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741227658356358863.post-32670420552898672262011-03-19T17:51:24.462-07:002011-03-19T17:51:24.462-07:00I agree with Petteri. It's one thing to live ...I agree with Petteri. It's one thing to live from moment to moment trying steer a path by taking actions and making choices that feel like the kindest and most helpful thing to do in the immediate situation. It's another to formulate "Buddhist" economic guidelines for myself, let alone a nation or the world.<br /><br />For individuals, I'm not sure that rules help us make David Ashtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18339979176989832285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741227658356358863.post-66427202364337252952011-03-19T14:52:04.214-07:002011-03-19T14:52:04.214-07:00It's like a stone in my shoe, that's what....It's like a stone in my shoe, that's what. <br /><br />My attitude towards my work has shifted since I started practicing Zen about two years ago. How and what that means and what I ought to do about it remains a mystery, beyond trying not to fuck stuff up moment to moment, and the necessity of giving something, not just taking or expecting something, in work or out of it.<br /><br />But Brikoleurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01318706625291447339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741227658356358863.post-9921593712410590062011-03-19T14:35:29.479-07:002011-03-19T14:35:29.479-07:00Hi Nathan,
Thanks for writing about this. I have t...Hi Nathan,<br />Thanks for writing about this. I have three short thoughts (I wrote an earlier, longer comment but Blogger trashed it and I couldn't recover it):<br /><br />- In my experience, Western Buddhist communities contain a disproportionately large number of people who live on the margins of economic society. Certainly some people have considerable economic security; but many, Barryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09412033978642026623noreply@blogger.com